IAQ RADIO+
Show Number: 757 Draft Blog
Derrick A. Denis, CIAQP, CIEC, CAC
Wildfire Characterization and IAQ Current Events
Good Day and welcome to IAQ Radio+ episode 757 blog. This week we welcomed Derrick Denis of Clark Seif Clark, Inc. to discuss wildfire characterization assessment and remediation, hazards related to lithium battery fire and concerns of the mental health of those who routinely encounter traumatic situations and much more.
Derrick A. Denis is a Senior Vice President with Clark Seif Clark, Inc. (CSC). He is a practitioner, inventor, educator, author and volunteer, who has provided industrial hygiene, environmental health and safety, infection control, and indoor environmental quality (IEQ) services for over 32 years. He is also an expert witness for insurance and litigation disputes for both plaintiffs and defendants. Derrick is also an inventor of, and patent holder for, Sewer Gas Solutions®.
Nuggets mined from today’s episode:
How did you enter the environmental field? Derrick seeking work in the environmental field left Oklahoma (where oilfield work dried up) for California. His first job was hanging from a cherry picker and wiping the ledges on the underside of bridges sampling for lead from combusted leaded gasoline.
Derrick what is your primary goal when you start work each day? Derrick readily admits to having a hero complex and firm commitment to preventing others from dying early.
From your experience, which requires more training and experience: mold assessment or structural fire damage assessment, and why? It is all about timing; when CSC was first requested to do mold assessments, they independently researched the subject, obtained resources such as the AIHA Redbook, NYC Guidelines. The CSC approach was to know what to look for and what questions to answer. The short answer is structural fire damage because the heat and pressure of the fire push residues into interstitial spaces.
What is CSC’s history of wildland-urban interface fire residue testing? In 2002 a Public Adjuster asked CSC to inspect 30 buildings following the Rodeo–Chediski wildfire that burned in east-central Arizona beginning on June 18, 2002, and not controlled until July 7. It was the worst forest fire in Arizona's recorded history. Several local communities were threatened and had to be evacuated.
At that time surface sampling was done using the back on an ungloved hand or a chemical sponge. University research had found that soot was identifiable using direct microscopy. While 3-dimensional fire debris was visible within the properties, 50% of the numerous samples taken were non-detect for soot. CSC recommended that the buildings be cleaned. The client was sued for fraud. Derrick explained the science in his trial testimony and opined that soot analysis alone was insufficient and that additionally char and ash analysis also needed to be done. CSC sampling withstood the legal challenge, and their client was awarded a large financial settlement.
Currently, when indicated CSC now in addition to use of wipes and micro wipes recommends use of advanced microscopy.
When the recent Los Angles wildfires broke out; Derrick drove to Altadena, CA in his RV. Derrick refers to the Los Angeles wildfires as urban fires, because 16,200 buildings burned. CSC altered their sampling approach to consider characteristics of urban fires.
Are the terms "impacted" and "damaged interchangeable"? According to Derrick, smoke damage is the altering of something. Impact is like spilling something on the kitchen floor and wiping it up. Derrick gave these other examples of impact: asbestos release, Condition 2 mold, and standing water on a water-resistant floor. (Z-Man cited Martin King’s explanation “that the presence of smoke residue constitutes a damaged condition until removed” as the restoration industry position.)
Is microscopy needed to “confirm” fire impact when the visible and olfactory evidence is overwhelming? Fire damage assessors and restorers are injected into chaos. Fire damage assessors visually identify what’s visually identifiable and do not always need to sample. It is important for assessors to “look for the why”. What restoration response is warranted. Sampling is most useful where there is no visual impact.
Step Out Sampling is used for sampling the soil contamination of sites and involves systematically moving further away from the source contaminated site. Step In Sampling is what Derrick calls systematically sampling while moving closer to source contaminated site.
Reasonable degree of scientific certainty. Take photos, take video, take surface samples and bulk samples and hold.
Franco Seif’s tale of a soiled baby diaper falling onto the floor and the parents requesting sampling for fecal coliform.
Wildfire impact occurs at penetrations (attic eves, windows, doors, etc.) Once the wildfire smoke enters the building the pressure drops and the residue settles quickly. CSC may recommend cleaning 3’-5’ from exterior penetrations. On wildfires CSC samples the HVAC system and clothing separately.
What are the differences between wildland fires, wildland-urban interface fires, urban fires, and structure fires? Every structure fire is unique. Use of a cookie cutter assessment approach is prone to missing things. On structure fires heat and pressure force smoke residue into interstitial spaces. This doesn’t occur on wildfires. It is uncommon for wildfire residue to be found in exterior wall cavities.
Who is qualified to take samples? A monkey could be taught to take samples. A monkey cannot answer the important questions: Why take the sample? Why use a lab? What does sampling mean? The assessor normally goes out solo as a 1 man show. Junior staff may miss something. We can teach the foundation: Written Respiratory Protection Program. Physical exam. Training. Fit testing.
Detectable doesn’t mean dangerous. From birth everything around us is trying to kill us! A can of soda contains lead. We can detect some substances at parts per trillion..
The best way to clear trauma cleanup is to observe the crew doing the work. Is the antimicrobial EPA registered, is the product being applied according to the label instructions, has the antimicrobial had sufficient dwell time. Is it more likely than not that the processes met objectives.
For clearing fire losses is there less than 1% soot, char, ash? Why 1%, because 1% is the level of quantification. Err on the side of safety of the occupants. Derrick considers this approach to be very conservative.
What is the result of the nonexistence of pre-fire event baselines on fire losses, etc.? Clearance is not health based. Clearance is to determine the absence or presence of deposits related to wildfires that were not present before the floss. A scary thought, CSC periodically gets called to sample suspicious powders found in rental cars for fentanyl.
Source Control? It’s hot in Arizona. The gas in gas cans stored in garages evaporates fast, so it’s common for people to bring gas cans indoors.
What do you mean by the term “Ash is Cash”? A money grab mentality similar to “Mold is Gold”. Experts are coming out of the woodwork to do post wildfire testing, remediation, public adjusting and litigation. While it is reasonable to prevent acute chronic illness; neighborhood groups are frightened into frothy frenzy together to conduct neighborhood post wildfire testing for “ethyl-methyl-death”.
Why are lithium battery fires of concern? Lithium ion batteries are all over. There are warehouses full of them. Lithium ion batteries power, tools, cars, buses, tractor trailers, mobility devices, provide backup power for cities, etc. Lithium batteries burn underwater releasing toxic chemical laden steam. Thermal runaway of lithium batteries in series. First responders to electric car fires risk electrocution due to stored energy and must refer to Emergency Response Guides for site specific instructions.
When burning lithium batteries burn molten combination of hazardous chemicals is released (Hydrofluoric Acid and Hydrogen Cyanide, etc.). Burning lithium batteries often explode sending shrapnel over distances. A hazardous black mess is leftover.
No one has an inventory of lithium batteries. Electrical outlets charging multiple lithium powered devices are subject to overload and catching fire.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/b ... 523361002/ McMiken Energy Storage Facility Fire.
Thanks to Don Weekes for providing these added resources in the show chat:
Don Weekes 1:03 PM
https://evreporter.com/dealing-with-lit ... 20property.
https://www.dhses.ny.gov/system/files/d ... /h_m20.pdf
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/a-z/lithium-i ... trategies/
What PPE do you recommend for remediation workers cleaning up lithium fires? Lithium fire cleanups ae 40 hour Hazwoper events. PAPR during cleanup. Capture and dispose of runoff water and spent cleaning solutions. Awareness of the comingled hazards of lithium and lead acid batteries.
Derrick’s advice on lithium battery fires is to let them burn out.
Remediation Recommendations:
Job hazard analysis.
40 hour Hazwoper
Heat Stress may be the biggest risk.
Arc flash suit.
Arc flash gloves
Rubber boots with steel toes
1 hour in, 30 minutes out
Decon setup
Decon attendants
Paramedic
Ice bath
Derrick’s advice on lithium battery risk management:
Use asbestos management program as a potential starting template.
Don’t install chargers next to buildings.
Don’t park vehicles under buildings.
Manage your inventory of lithium batteries.
Periodic inspection.
End of life disposal.
Mental health of restoration workers? Restoration workers are injected into chaos. They cannot unsee what they’ve seen, Unhear what they’ve heard, or Unsmell what they’ve smelled. Seeing hurricane damage closeup. Seeing a baby’s crib in a meth lab. The imprint of a dead person on a floor. Each of these traumatic episodes is a feather. 2,000 pounds of feathers weigh a ton. Graham Dick once told Derrick that “seeing things he’s not okay with”. Derrick teamed up with Dr. Trevor Wilkens aka “the angry Viking therapist” to make a keynote presentation at the recent AIHA convention.
https://neurotraumaproject.com/
Acknowledging that restoration industry mental health as an undiscussed topic; RadioJoe and I are sufficiently impressed that we are inviting Derrick and Trevor to do an IAQradio podcast and also advocating that they be invited to the 2026 RIA convention to make a keynote presentation.
RoundUp
• Tired of early morning calls to investigate natural gas leaks at evacuated hospitals and finding the cause of the complaint was sewer gas coming out of dry traps; Derrick invented a mechanical Sewer Gas Solution. The solution is to treat unused drains which dry out overtime. The solution provides a liquid barrier to sewer gas in the drain trap. Learn more at: sewergassolutions.com The treatment lasts 1 year.
• From the moment you are born everything is trying to kill you (UV light, radon, mold, viruses, bacteria, naturally occurring asbestos, apex predators, other people) You must be resilient, or you wouldn’t be here today.
• You are going to die. So, get busy doing what you think you need to do.
Z-Man signing off
Trivia: What was the confidential codename assigned to preparations for the D-day Invasion?
Answer: Bigot
I do agree that sample results should be intrepeted by a certified individual.
