Episode 683: Burley PhD, Isenbeck PE, McNulty PE - ASHRAE 62.1 Ventilation & Acceptable Indoor Air Quality

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Episode 683: Burley PhD, Isenbeck PE, McNulty PE - ASHRAE 62.1 Ventilation & Acceptable Indoor Air Quality

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Show Resources: Show Discussion:

12:02:10 From Jim Newman : Hi there, Bill B.
12:02:43 From Jim Newman : Haven't seen you on here before
12:03:59 From Bill Pockels : Bill B. or Bill P.
12:04:14 From Bruce White : 1930?
12:04:15 From John Lapotaire : November 11, 1930
12:04:39 From Donald Weekes : 1899
12:05:39 From Donald Weekes : Albert T. Marshall, an American inventor, patented the first mechanical refrigerator in 1899.
12:06:08 From Jim Newman : Well, Bill B., after hearing Brendon's intro I guess I know why you're here, eh?
12:06:36 From William P Bahnfleth : Here because it's about 62.1
12:08:37 From John Lapotaire : 1851
12:08:53 From William P Bahnfleth : "No moving parts" - Einstein-Szilard refrigerator 1930 is one possibility
12:10:00 From John Lapotaire : Ferdinand Carré, a French engineer, developed a refrigerator that used a mixture containing ammonia and water in 1859
12:10:16 From cliff zlotnik : In what year was the first patent application filed in the US for the technology used in a continuously operating refrigerator which can be made without moving parts?
12:11:15 From cliff zlotnik : hint it was after 1851 but before 1930
12:12:47 From Jim Newman : So Don Weekes answer wasn't the right answer, eh?
12:14:53 From cliff zlotnik : No correct answer so far. The patent was filed in the US, the inventor wasn't an American. The firm founded by the inventor is still in business
12:16:15 From William P Bahnfleth : I'm the chair...
12:16:28 From William P Bahnfleth : Call for members coming out presently.
12:18:02 From Donald Weekes : 1922. Willis Carrier and His Invention of Centrifugal Chiller Technology. In May 1922, Willis Carrier unveiled his single most influential innovation, the centrifugal refrigeration machine (or "chiller").
12:18:41 From William P Bahnfleth : Centrifugal chillers have compressors. If I heard no moving parts correctly, that's not it.
12:19:20 From cliff zlotnik : Right year, wrong guy
12:20:07 From Donald Weekes : Okay. :)
12:20:26 From John Lapotaire : 1922 Baltzar von Platen
and Carl Munters
12:20:48 From cliff zlotnik : correct John!!! well done
12:21:07 From cliff zlotnik : please email me your address
12:21:12 From John Lapotaire : Fun
12:21:57 From William P Bahnfleth : So desiccant based?
12:22:32 From cliff zlotnik : US patent 1645017A
12:22:56 From John Lapotaire : gas absorption refrigerator
12:22:57 From cliff zlotnik : not desiccant based
12:23:15 From John Lapotaire : https://patents.google.com/patent/US1669269
12:23:24 From Jim Newman : For better energy recovery than run-around systems, which are typically prox 50% effective if kept clean and you're lucky, check out a company in NJ called Building Performance Equipment. It is operated by a former chair of ASHRAE'S Air-to-air Energy Recovery TC, Klas Haglid.
12:24:28 From William P Bahnfleth : ashrae.org/iaq
12:25:37 From William P Bahnfleth : House I lived in in the 1970s had a gas-fired Servel air conditioner. Did not know they had no pump.
12:27:48 From Jim Newman : I had one of those, too, but a bit earlier than the 70s
12:29:00 From Joel Berman, President, Health Science Associates : What was that e-mail address to provide a suggested edit to an ASHRAE standard?
12:29:02 From Tom Martin III : Are any of the asthma organizations
IAQ parameters considered in your guidelines ?
Example-
AAFA.org
American Lung Association
12:29:19 From Donald Weekes : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator
12:29:22 From Meghan McNulty : osr.ashrae.org
12:32:05 From Joel Berman, President, Health Science Associates : Thank you.
12:39:11 From John Lapotaire : chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.ashrae.org/file%20library/a ... e_2022.pdf
12:39:22 From John Lapotaire : ASHRAE Position Document on Indoor Carbon Dioxide
12:39:29 From William P Bahnfleth : More from the Rules of the Board:

1.201.005 Health Impacts of ASHRAE Standards (00-02-06-09)
ASHRAE standards shall consider health impacts where appropriate.

1.201.006 Health and Safety Impacts of ASHRAE Publications (04-06-30-05)
Consistent with the ASHRAE’ Certificate of Consolidation, Bylaws and Code of Ethics, ASHRAE activities and publications including but not limited to position documents, handbooks, special publications, standards and guidelines, technical and educational programs, and conferences shall consider health and safety impacts, where appropriate. While ASHRAE does not make findings as to the health and safety impacts of environmental exposures, ASHRAE activities and publications where appropriate shall consider and reference findings issued by cognizant organizations with the appropriate scope and expertise.
12:48:28 From Tom Martin III : Indoor Air quality in SC and FL schools are getting worse. More parents are homeschooling kids over time.. Environmental asthma triggers commonly found in school buildings include: cockroaches and other pests. Mold resulting from excess “moisture in the building”.
12:52:19 From John Lapotaire : Very true Tom. That has led to very poor IAQ in homes with occupants that spend most of their time indoors working and homeschooling. Inadequate ventilation in the home.
12:55:44 From William P Bahnfleth : Great overview of what is going on in the SSPC. Thanks, all.
12:56:29 From Jim Newman : Definitely one of your best webinars - congratulations!
12:57:08 From Jim Newman : There is nothing like good ASHRAE folks
12:57:25 From Donald Weekes : So true, Jim!
12:57:45 From Patrick Farris : Agreed, great job everyone.
12:57:52 From John Lapotaire : Great Show!
13:00:51 From Bill Pockels : Don't some schools have summer school?
13:01:50 From Tom Martin III : If your guidelines become aligned with CDC recommendations for asthma and IAQ for mold we could help reduce health care inflation over time.
Example—
Indoor RH between 35-50%
Indoor Temp 68-71 degrees
Dew point
CDC and other asthma foundations publish IAQ parameters ..
School Boards don’t want to hear it or look at lab reports
13:07:11 From Victor Cafaro : Good day everyone
13:07:19 From William P Bahnfleth : Get a song out of Mike, too.
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CliffZ
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Re: Episode 683: Burley PhD, Isenbeck PE, McNulty PE - ASHRAE 62.1 Ventilation & Acceptable Indoor Air Quality

Post by CliffZ »

IAQ RADIO

Show Number: 683

Brendon Burley, PhD, PE, LEED AP Jennifer Isenbeck, PE, LEED AP Meghan McNulty, PE
ASHRAE 62.1 Ventilation & Acceptable Indoor Air Quality
Is Acceptable, Acceptable?

This week we welcomed Dr. Brendon Burley, Jennifer Isenbeck, PE and Meghan McNulty, PE for a show we called ASHRAE 62.1 Is Acceptable, Acceptable?

The ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 62.1-2022, Ventilation and Acceptable Indoor Air Quality has been under the microscope with COVID and now RSV, Flu, etc. The standard has been the topic of many comments and critiques. This week we bring the perspective of three committee members to get their perspective. LEARN MORE & SHARE MORE on IAQradio+

Nuggets mined from today’s episode:

Background
“Standard 62.1 is a consensus standard written by volunteers and published by non-regulatory professional organization, ASHRAE. A variety of different participants from companies, building owners, consultants, governmental authorities and professionals are included in the group of volunteers that develop the standards. The volunteers will be expected to maintain the standard over time, and to reissue a revised standard in a timely fashion. These types of standards can be adopted by governmental agencies, such as building authorities, but they are intended for this use.
Regulatory standard is a legal document that has been issued by a governmental authority, such as OSHA, USEPA, etc. For example, OSHA issues Permissible Exposure Limits (TLV's) as regulatory standards mandated under the law. The building code is another example of a regulatory standard.
Best Practices standards or guidelines are not consensus or regulatory standards. They are intended to offer the best practices for a specific field of reference, such as the best practices in construction. The use of the words, 'shall', or 'will', is not used in these documents since these best practices are not required under the law by a government authority. ASHRAE issues guidelines on a variety of subjects, including the Indoor Air Quality Guide, and the soon-to-be-issued Guideline 42P, Enhanced Indoor Air Quality in Commercial and Institutional Buildings.”

The show began with a video clip of Joe Allen’s comments at the White House IAQ Summit in which questions the acceptability of ASHRAE’s guidance on acceptable IAQ.

Brendan Burley: According to ASHRAE an environment which is not objectionable to 80% of the building occupants is considered acceptable. He pointed out that historically, ASHRAE’s ventilation rates have increased from 4-6 CFM to 15 CFM per person (.06-.08 CFM per square foot). ASHRAE’s ventilation rates are not designed to control infection. If you want ventilation rates for healthcare facilities, he advises to refer to ASHRAE standard 70.

Meghan McNulty: ASHRAE’s ventilation rates are not negotiable.

Jennifer Isenbeck: Works mostly with water cooled HVAC systems. ASHRAE has committed to developing a (non-consensus, non-ANSI) pathogen ventilation for the White House to distribute.

Brendan Burley: Consensus standards are best because they can reduce dominance and bias by bringing all of the stakeholders to the table. During consensus standard development the interested parties often must give something up.

Jennifer Isenbeck, Meghan McNulty, Brendan Burley
ASHRAE SSPC 62.1 SSCV - SUBCOMMITTEE ON SOURCES, SOURCE CONTROL AND VENTILATION RATES
Currently 20 committee members
Goal is for ventilation to be better than acceptable. Better, Safer, More Efficient
Public review.
Continuous maintenance- incorporates current information
Formal updating every 3-4 years.
Open to suggestion: osr.ashrae.org

Brendan Burley: ASHRAE’s position is one of humility. ASHRAE cannot guarantee the health and safety of occupants. ASHRAE rules prohibit health and safety claims:
“1.201.006 Health and Safety Impacts of ASHRAE Publications (04-06-30-05) Consistent with the ASHRAE’ Certificate of Consolidation, Bylaws and Code of Ethics, ASHRAE activities and publications including but not limited to position documents, handbooks, special publications, standards and guidelines, technical and educational programs, and conferences shall consider health and safety impacts, where appropriate. While ASHRAE does not make findings as to the health and safety impacts of environmental exposures, ASHRAE activities and publications where appropriate shall consider and reference findings issued by cognizant organizations with the appropriate scope and expertise.”

There is a difference between an acceptable and quantifiable contaminant such as formaldehyde and a pathogen. A pathogen is a collector of contaminants. Different people require different exposure limits. You can’t put a general number on it, nor can you quantify or regulate a pathogen. Overall health with ASHRAE policy.

Jennifer Isenbeck: Most ASHRAE members are engineers. These are our personal opinions not ASHRAE’s official positions. ASHRAE needs to stay in its lanes.

Meghan McNulty: Formaldehyde is a concrete example. Once we know what the limit of formaldehyde is permitted, we can design for it.

Brendan Burley: Issues such as controlling infection risks in operating rooms, pressurizing needed for sterility, etc. is found in: ANSI/ASHRAE/ASHE Standard 170-2021 -- Ventilation of Health Care Facilities Developed in partnership with Facility Guidelines Institute (FGI) and American Society of Health Care Engineering (ASHE), ASHRAE Standard-170 has been providing key guidance on ventilation requirements for health care industry facilities since 2008. Use Standard 170 alongside HVAC Design Manual for Hospitals and Clinics for comprehensive design guidance on hospitals, nursing and outpatient facilities.

Meghan McNulty- ASHRAE has been adopted in many building codes.

Jennifer Isenbeck: ASHRAE 62 has been simplified through removal of some indexes and appendices where ASHRAE went out of its lane.

Meghan McNulty- The revised ASHRAE 62 is easier to apply.
What about filtration requirements? Filtration recommendations are meant to protect equipment MERV 8. Outdoor air may need to be filtered in some instances.

Brendan Burley: Some of his favorite changes are still in flux. An advocate for incorporation of information from Facilities Guidelines Institute (FGI). The change from RH to Dewpoint, cautions that no one is enforcing Dew Point. Notes below tables were removed. Density correction was unintentionally removed. Considering adding density correction in the future. It’s not just what’s new, it’s also what’s next!

What about asthma recommendations? Jennifer Isenbeck: ASHRAE doesn’t specifically deal with asthma. She recommends local filtration.

Florida parents are concerned about IEQ in their children’s schools? Jennifer Isenbeck: When the schools were originally built they met the code. Schools shut down over summer to save energy, this causes condensation.. Due to humidity concerns, opening windows in Florida schools is not a viable option.

Brendan Burley: Exciting research projects being done in ASHRAE 170, such as diseases that are tied to climatic conditions (e.g. respiratory illness in cold dry climates).

Guest comments made during the show preparation period:

Sometimes the deck seems to be stacked.
A recent ASHRAE Journal article points out that “The code process is now also political and not just technical. At times it seems dominated by lobbyist, consultants, special interest groups, and manufactures who use the code process to promote specific agendas, limit competition to require their products be used or both, while trying to save the world”. (ASHRAE Journal November 2022).

ASHRAE recommendations have nothing to do with human health, and remove any mention of occupant wellbeing from the mission statement.

ASHRAE promotes occupant satisfaction.

ASHRAE engineers embrace the knowledge and expertise of professionals in medicine and hope that they add human health to the equation.

Protecting occupants - starting with at least trying to maintain appropriate indoor humidity - may require upgrades in building insulation and regular maintenance of humidification systems.

If putting this effort in is too much for building professionals, then I am truly at a loss for words. There is no longer a respectable middle road! We must do better!!

ROUNDUP-
Jennifer Isenbeck: As an engineer her thinking has changed, she now is working on a guidelines for buildings as a system. People, pathogens, pathways and pressurization are key considerations for building detectives.

Meghan McNulty: We need to consider improving IEQ along with energy efficiency. How to most affordably fix existing buildings now without causing mold problems.

Brendan Burley: Ventilation, IEQ and Energy. Developing consensus standards while hard is right way to approach standardization in a meaningful and efficient way. The new pathogen standard is just the beginning with room to grow.

Z-Man signing off

TRIVIA:
In what year was the first patent application filed in the US for the technology used in a continuously operating refrigerator which can be made without moving parts?

Answer: 1922, Munters Carl Georg & Platen Baltzar Carl Von US 1645017A
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1645017A/en

Answered by: John Lapotaire
Indoor Air Quality Solutions, IAQS
5840 Red Bug Lake Rd
Suite 300
Winter Springs, FL 32708
United States
407-383-9459
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Re: Episode 683: Burley PhD, Isenbeck PE, McNulty PE - ASHRAE 62.1 Ventilation & Acceptable Indoor Air Quality

Post by RadioJoe »

What an excellent show and great guests this week. It can be tough to do a 3 person interview but this group made it easy. They obviously have worked together and are passionate about the topic. It's easy to blame others for everything that is wrong in building today but not as easy to get CONSENSUS on damn near anything. Writing consensus standards is a lot tougher than being King and proclaiming how things should be done. Maybe acceptable is not acceptable but it is a baseline and lets face it most buildings are built as inexpensively as possible. Good IAQ takes thought, planning and money but the paybacks over time are tremendous.

My personal thanks to our guests for being forthright and taking on a tough subject with NO topic being off limits. That's what makes for a great show and leads to better understanding and cooperation.
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