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Show Discussion:

12:00:51 From Doug’s iPad : Best Wishes to Everyone! Hi Jeremy!
12:04:02 From John Lapotaire : Snoopy
12:04:29 From cliff zlotnik : Whose plaque is number 2563 on Hollywood's Walk of Fame
12:04:37 From Doug’s iPad : Quick John!
12:05:38 From John Lapotaire : LOL
12:07:13 From cliff zlotnik : well done John!!!
12:30:16 From scott armour : Anywhere from $250 to $10,000
12:30:26 From scott armour : It DEPENDS
12:30:50 From scott armour : FREE if the contractor provides it! lol
12:37:10 From scott armour : Stabilize: “open a window”!!!
12:37:35 From scott armour : slow or stop continuing negative impacts
12:39:06 From scott armour : Who cares what the Ins Adj “agrees” to pay or not - that is seaparet contractual agreement for building owner to reduce the cost impact - it has little to do with the technical aspects of “doing it right”
12:40:01 From scott armour : S500 2021 - Section 12.4.2: Controlling Humidity and Stabilization (Initial Humidity Control),
12:43:10 From scott armour : Q: WHY should insurance policy pay for “everything”?
12:44:07 From scott armour : I think the problem is “everyone” believes that “everything” is covered - they forget the contractual limitations of the coverage
12:45:37 From scott armour : This discussion was just had on one of the Restoration groups - the idea of non-destructive DRYING was being promoted… “We CAN dry without removing any materials”
12:46:56 From Bob (Maine) : CYA!
12:47:27 From scott armour : All Sample Results MUST increase the Power of Decision-Making…. This helps to provide the “Expectation” of the assessment - ASK the CORRECT questions FIRST
12:48:17 From scott armour : Why are we drying material that we plan to remove?
12:49:01 From scott armour : OR - because the drying process was flawed - and the slow process allowed growth during the drying period.
12:49:44 From SUSAN VALENTI : Jeremy, you’re in the top tier of IAQA. What role should they play in these questions?
12:52:16 From scott armour : What is the difference between Expert and prudent practitioner?
12:52:49 From SUSAN VALENTI : Great question, Scott
12:53:16 From scott armour : So why doesn’t IICRC just SUPPORT the ASTM… instead of re-inventing the wheel
12:54:46 From scott armour : “Performance” means you have a goal! What is the goal of any assessment
12:55:45 From scott armour : A CB by definition needs to represent the Prudent Practitioner, not the “expert”…
12:55:53 From Remmie Arnold : Skill... and wisdom
12:57:03 From scott armour : Does the Standard represent Expert knowledge, or Prudent Practitioner knowledge?
12:57:30 From Remmie Arnold : Holistic
12:58:05 From Jay M Stake : I have to go, take care J
12:59:25 From scott armour : BTW— Jeremy is one of THE BEST professionals I’ve had the pleasure to work with… he’s a great Vice Chair for a standard….
12:59:36 From Remmie Arnold : Standards are "minimums"
13:00:22 From Dave Kahane : Helpful to thing that all you do is likely to someday be reviewed by an attorney for the standard of care the context of the work, and the ultimate basis for the recommendations.
13:00:44 From scott armour : Remmie - “sort of” - BUT they represent what the knowledgable prudent practitioner is doing TODAY…
13:01:36 From Dave Kahane : Agree completely
13:01:47 From scott armour : A report should provide sufficient info and explanation that in the future, “anyone” will understand what you’re saying. When you are no longer around
13:02:51 From Mili Washington : Thank you Jeremy, Joe, and Cliff!
13:03:02 From scott armour : Great job jeremy
13:03:06 From Remmie Arnold : Adios

IAQ RADIO

Show Number: 703

Jeremy Beagle, CIH
Senior Principal Scientist SDII Global
Mold Assessment & Restorative Drying Redefined

This week we welcomed Jeremy Beagle, Senior Principal Scientist at SDII Global for a show we titled mold assessment & restorative drying redefined.

Jeremy is a Senior Principal Scientist and CIH with SDII Global having over 18 years progressive experience performing causation assessments pertaining to moisture, fungal growth and other indoor environmental firms in the built environment as well as provides expert witness testimony. Jeremy currently is the 1st Vice President of the IAQA and the Vice-chair for the IICRC S530 Mold Assessment Standard.

Nuggets mined for today’s episode:

Tell our audience about how you entered the IEQ field and SDII?
Jeremy started his career in IEQ on post-catastrophe work. With 150+ employees and offices in Texas and Florida; SDII works nationwide. The majority of SDII’s work is structural, most employees are engineers and Jeremy is one of the three scientists. The firm started doing geotechnical engineering (e.g. sinkholes) and consulting work and then diversified into the environmental sector.

What do you do at work?
60% of Jeremy’s work is expert witness. 40% of his expert witness work is pre-litigation where he determines ‘what is the problem and what to do about it’? He performs desk reviews of case related document and makes site inspections to assess or reassess conditions prior to litigation.

Restoration contractors have always struggled with their relationships with insurance carriers; in your experience has it gotten worse? As he isn’t a restoration contractor Jeremy can’t answer the question; he commented that contractor scrutiny by the insurance industry has increased overtime. Florida is the ‘wild west’ and many projects that he reviews have inadequate supporting documentation.

IAQA update? Jeremy is IAQA’s 1st Vice President. The IAQA annual meeting is Feb-6-9, 2023. The IAQA’s call for abstracts for presentations at the annual manual is out now. Jeremy receives 5-6 leads monthly from his profile posted on the IAQA’s website and recommends that IAQA members update their profiles. IAQA’s Mold in Schools Standard is ready for release. Revamping IAQA chapters and getting more people involved. Serious science programs for non-scientists, understanding vapor pressure is the first one.

What does stabilization mean in S-500? Remove water or take steps to prevent further damage. Stabilization is being abused by drying contractors who bring in excessive amounts of equipment for excessive periods of time and call it stabilization and then the water deteriorated, or fungal contaminated “stable materials” are torn out.

REDEFINING MOLD ASSESSMENT EXPECTATIONS
The current status quo is backwards because:
• Asked to critique what happened and what was done. (Do you agree with what was done?)
• Pre-existing damage?
• Stabilization
• Start drying (maybe cross contaminating)
• Then rip and tear out materials that are dry.
• Few samples (often only 2, 1 indoors and 1 outdoors), few photos
• Boilerplate protocol. (remove mold)

REDEFINING MOLD ASSESSMENT EXPECTATIONS
• Inspection is more important than sampling
• Sampling first is wrong.
• Part of the inspection is determining the origin and cause of the moisture.
• Evidence based conclusions supported by data and documentation
• Analytical testing (what mold(s), extent of colonization)
• Determine length of fungal growth
• Detailed report
• Author must integrate all the data,
• Site specific protocol. (remove mold and how to remove the mold)

ORIGIN & CAUSE
• Determination of why fungal growth has occurred.
• Origin- moisture source (need to fix)
• Cause- moisture cause (collect info using scientific method)
• Evidence based conclusions
• Observable data
• Measurable data
• Measurable data
• Environmental sampling
• How to separate causes
• (policy provision and length of wetness)
• Estimating

REDEFINING ASSESSMENT
• Replace mold in reports with moisture
• Without moisture there is no growth
• Not just a collection of samples
• Purpose of the assessment is to determine cause and origin of the moisture

STRUCTURAL DRYING
• Remove bulk water and RH
• Return wet materials to an acceptable condition-while maintaining function & aesthetic appearance
• Process
• Inspect source contamination-pre-existing damage
• Document moisture conditions & extent of boundaries-moisture levels.
• Set drying goals and obtain agree on goals.
• Remove unsalvageable building materials
• Prevent cross contamination (e.g. containment, engineering controls)
S-500 Section 8.6 Structural Drying- don’t disturb mold)
IICRC S-500 Section 10.4.25 Remediate mold prior to drying. Then tear out.
• Wet Materials that are unsalvageable or mold-laden should be removed before drying.
• Document
Both the ASTM and IICRC have mold standards. Why do we need another one? Will it be prescriptive or performance based? The IICRC has much wider reach. The standard will lay-out what the “standard of care” should be. It’s impossible to prescribe for all situations, so the document will be performance based.

Tips for improving expert witness reports
• Report writing is a science and an art.
• You need a good assessment tot provide data and info for a good report
• When you find yourself creative writing its an indication that your assessment wasn’t sufficiently detailed.
• Relevant background
• Details- (when, where and to what extent?)
• Detailed observations (meter readings, etc.)
• Lay out the logic for your opinions
• Use case studies to prove points

Jeremy’s general comments:
1. Why are we drying unsalvageable materials before removing them?
2. Is mold assessment being used to make an unjustified leap?
3. Mold assessments must provide value.
4. Are more rigorous qualifications necessary for the industry; particularly in states with mold licensing?
5. Competence is attained through mentorship, working under someone else.
6. Understand the processes and do better!
7. Scientists collect data to provide reliable answers.
8. Education- reevaluate, improve, scaleup.
9. WARNING: Look inside cavities before pressurizing them and causing cross contamination.
10. Asbestos and lead testing should be proactive and not based upon when the building was constructed. Not all asbestos is equally friable.

Z-Man signing off


Trivia Question:
Whose plaque is number 2563 on Hollywood’s Walk of Fame?

Answer:
Snoopy

Answered by John Lapotaire

An excellent job by Jeremy Beagle. Some interviews just work out better than others. This one was one that I will remember and look back on fondly. Jeremy hit all the high notes when discussing some important topics like proper mold assessment. He did not shy away from tough questions about the need for an IICRC mold assessment standard and as much as it drives me crazy he is correct that more people will be aware of the IICRC's assessment standard than the very good one developed by ASTM. I wish as one listener suggested IICRC would just promote the ASTM standard but $$$$ talks. IICRC has built a better mousetrap than most other organizations.

His tips for improving reports deserve to be repeated. If you ever wonder what other experts are looking for in your reports here it is.
Tips for improving expert witness reports
• Report writing is a science and an art.
• You need a good assessment to provide data and info for a good report
• When you find yourself creative writing its an indication that your assessment wasn’t sufficiently detailed.
• Relevant background
• Details- (when, where and to what extent?)
• Detailed observations (meter readings, etc.)
• Lay out the logic for your opinions
• Use case studies to prove points

And one more key point he mentioned in another part of the show. Use the word moisture instead of mold whereever it makes sense.

Great job Jeremy!

It would be really nice if we used the S500 Standard's lingo-
12.3.5 Humidity Control in Contaminated Structures
The priority for restorers is to complete remediation activities before restorative drying. However, the restorer should control the humidity in contaminated buildings to minimize moisture migration, potential secondary damage, and microbial amplification. Restorers should maintain negative pressure in relation to uncontaminated areas. Maintaining negative pressure in an affected area can increase or decrease the dehumidification capacity needed to maintain desired psychrometric conditions. This may be implemented before, during, or after decontamination.
Restorers should limit the velocity of airflow across contaminated surfaces to limit aerosolization of contaminants. Restorers should complete the drying process after the decontamination has been completed. In cases where the post-remediation verification requires drying to be completed prior to final clearance testing, the drying process may be completed before the final assessment.

AND WE REALLY SHOULD START USING A TERM SUCH AS "DRYING PLAN":
as per the standard section 12.2.2
.................Detailed inspections should be conducted to identify the Category of water, the Class of water or extent of wetting, the types and quantities of affected materials, and apparent or potential damage. The information obtained should then be used to develop a preliminary determination, pre-restoration evaluation, scope of work, and work plan. Thorough project documentation and recordkeeping are important while developing the scope of work and the execution and completion of the work plan. The restorer should develop a drying plan. It is recommended that the components of the drying plan include, but are not limited to:
■ Target drying conditions (e.g., humidity levels, atmospheric and material temperatures, air velocity, vapor pressure differentials);
■ Type of drying system (open, closed, combination); ■ Environmental controls to be installed (e.g., equipment, containment barriers) and reasons initial sizing and subsequent adjustments (e.g., prevailing weather, build out density, building envelope);
■ Materials, assemblies, contents, and systems the drying plan is intended to address; ■ Materials or assemblies requiring individual attention (i.e., Class 4); ■ Whether the HVAC system will be utilized as a resource; and ■ Concerns for potential secondary damage.

Both these items are "shoulds" under the s500

Thanks for the feeback Lee. I will make sure Jeremy sees it. Have a great weekend!
Joe