Episode 698: Carl Grimes, HHS, CIEC Defining Health, Including People in Assessments & ICRC S-520

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Show Discussion:

11:57:25 From Carl Grimes : Damp Buildings, Human Health, and HVAC Design
11:57:52 From Carl Grimes : https://www.ashrae.org/file%20library/t ... design.pdf
11:58:19 From IAQ Dotty : Hi Carl!
12:00:41 From Carl Grimes to Jonathan Faith(Direct Message) : Guideline 10: Interactions Affecting the Achievement of Acceptable Indoor Environments
12:05:04 From cliff zlotnik : trivia. Name the Medieval Latin word for "fix a tax upon"?
12:08:02 From Jonathan Faith : Last episode with Carl: https://www.iaqradio.com/carl-grimes-du ... score-com/
12:08:53 From Don Weekes : Trivia: assessus, or assess
12:09:29 From cliff zlotnik : Congrats Don Weekes. send address. Thanks CZ
12:19:02 From Tom Martin III : ASHRAE 62.1 and 62.2 do not include ventilation exchange rate for humans with asthma because they focus on general indoor air quality, not specific health conditions.
12:19:27 From Don Weekes : Reacted to "ASHRAE 62.1 and 62.2..." with
12:23:05 From Don Weekes : Slightly different version: In the early 1990's, ASHRAE was 'attacked' by tobacco companies who sent representatives to make sure that 'health' was not included in 62.1 and 62.2, among other Standards. That resulted in a Board Directive that stated that 'health' was not the focus of ASHRAE Standards. However, that is changing rapidly with EHC
12:24:54 From Don Weekes : And other Technical Committees, I think Carl has been a great influence on these Committees among others on other Committees.
12:34:09 From ponder : I would like to comment of human health an the protection of art work. To preserve art work a certain level of humidity must be part of the IAQ. I certain level of humidity will also provide a level of health for the human. Do you agree that this must be addressed in this conversation?
12:35:11 From Tom Martin III : Comment for experts about indoor health - Poor indoor building dampness and humidity can cause asthma attacks by promoting mold growth and dust mites, which trigger allergic reactions in asthmatic individuals. High moisture and dew point can trigger life-threatening asthma attacks due to increased mold growth, dust mites, and airway inflammation.
12:37:49 From Tom Martin III : Measuring the seven IAQ components is key.
12:38:35 From Ralph Froehlich : People live healthy lives at all extremes of humidity, so how does air moisture directly affect human health?
12:39:55 From Danny Gough’s iPad : Tom, did you see the paper. Population Attributable Fraction of Gas Stoves and Childhood Asthma in the United States?
12:39:57 From Tom Martin III : CDC recommends maintaining indoor humidity between 35-50% for people with asthma to reduce respiratory symptoms and prevent asthma attacks.
12:41:18 From Mike McGuinness : One of the 4 P's is PEOPLE, remember? Who can name the other three?
12:43:03 From cliff zlotnik : Ponder, the subject of high moisture has been discussed in depth on prior IAQradio shows. We've had opinions from experts who advocated adding moisture to reduce flu and covid risk during winter in cold climates AND other experts who disagreed.
12:43:36 From Jonathan Faith : PATHWAYS
12:44:03 From cliff zlotnik : people, path____, press____. pol_____
12:44:49 From Tom Martin III : Politicians and leaders may ignore Sick Building Syndrome findings in commercial buildings due to a lack of awareness, financial constraints, or competing priorities. They may also not view it as a pressing issue or downplay its impact.
12:44:50 From Mike McGuinness : How about the NIOSH Office health Questioinnaire? Awesome focument...
12:46:15 From Don Weekes : https://www.ashrae.org/file%20library/c ... report.pdf
12:46:27 From Mike McGuinness : toxin-induced loss of tolerance...
12:46:52 From ponder : Replying to "Ponder, the subject ..."
The largest organ on the human body is skin, the skin absorbs all particles and liquids. Humidity must have a place in this discussion because a dry eye of mouth is a health issue.
12:47:13 From Don Weekes : Replying to "https://www.ashrae.o..."
Report of Multidisciplinary Task Group (MTG)
Health and Wellness in the Built Environment (HWBE
12:50:02 From cliff zlotnik : Replying to "Ponder, the subject ..."
personally, I'm an advocate for adding moisture to maintain a consistent level of moisture.
12:50:27 From ponder : Does anybody believe that indoor humidity that is stagnate is healthy to breathe in?
12:52:51 From Tom Martin III : The Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America's top 10 steps for employers to improve indoor air quality and reduce asthma triggers are:
1. Encourage regular cleaning for health techniques
2. Use high-quality air filters
3. Control humidity levels
4. Properly maintain HVAC systems
5. Use non-toxic cleaning products
6. Control pests
7. Implement smoking policies
8. Increase ventilation
9. Educate employees about asthma and indoor air quality
10. Consider air quality when selecting new furniture, carpeting, and paint.
12:54:01 From ponder : Replying to "Ponder, the subject ..."

13:00:18 From Tom Martin III : People with asthma need indoor temperature between 67-71°F and humidity between 35-50% to maintain a comfortable and healthy environment that reduces the likelihood of asthma triggers such as mold, dust mites, and pollen. Extremes of temperature and humidity can worsen respiratory symptoms and increase the risk of asthma attacks.
13:00:40 From Mike McGuinness : there are no plans currebntly to update the Reference Guide
13:02:14 From Tom Martin III : While the Institute of Inspection, Cleaning and Restoration Certification (IICRC) sets industry standards, local lawmakers may not legally recognize them. Building codes and regulations vary by jurisdiction.
13:02:45 From Ralph Froehlich : Replying to "Ponder, the subject ..."
The skin does NOT absorb all particles and liquids. Most solid particles are kept out of the body by the skin, and many ionic liquids are separated from the body by the skin.
13:02:46 From Carl Grimes to Jonathan Faith(Direct Message) : 1. SCORE to establish the house-specific situation.
2. BREESl to screen for occupant need.
3. Complaint Equation with PIR to profile the need and establish minimum diligence.
4. QEESI to compare reported symptoms before work begins with after work is completed.
5. Exposure History for the Physician.
13:03:15 From Carl Grimes to Jonathan Faith(Direct Message) : tiltresearch.org grimes@haywardscore.com
13:05:07 From Tom Martin III : Problem is local lawmakers may not legally recognize them. Building codes and regulations vary by jurisdiction.
13:06:39 From Tom Martin III : We need a list of local lawmaker zip codes that follow higher standards.
13:12:59 From ponder : Replying to "Ponder, the subject ..."
I view the skin as a sponge, that picks up liquid and particles, do you believe this has any effect on human health?

[CliffZ]

IAQradio episode 698 draft blog

Carl Grimes, HHS, CIEC
Defining Health, Including People in Assessments and IICRC S-520 Revision Discussion

This week we welcome back a longtime friend of the show Carl Grimes of Hayward Score. Many of our listeners know Carl has been an advocate for including health in IEQ assessments for years and has been working with sensitive people for decades. Carl has been busy as usual and recently worked with ASHRAE to better define health, spoke at IAQA on including people in assessments and has been following the S520 revisions. Carl has unique perspective and insight into the IICRC’s mold remediation standard and his thoughts on the latest proposed revisions. Carl is a member of the consensus board of the BSR/IICRC S-590 Standard for Assessing HVAC Systems following a Water Damage, Fire or Mold Damage Event.

Hayward Score Healthy Home Director Carl Grimes, HHS CIEC, has a unique combination of experiences. He has personal experience of how an unhealthy home created his disabling impact and the professional experience in various industries working in the Indoor Air Quality (IAQ) field. Carl wrote Starting Points for Healthy Habitat in 1999, detailing possibilities of what could occur in a house to make its occupants sick, how to identify what was happening, what to do about it, what not to do, and how to verify the results.

The book led to an invitation to speak at the national conference of the Indoor Air Quality Association, which led to an invitation to serve on a committee that wrote the first mold remediation standard. This was followed by revising the ANSI accredited water damage restoration standard, duct cleaning standards for two organizations, fire residue in HVAC systems, and eventually to the creation of IAQA’s Home Health Committee. Under his leadership a new course was developed in partnership with the National Center for Healthy Housing and Children’s Mercy Hospital in Kansas City: Healthy Home Assessment: Principles and Practice. Other activities included serving on the Board of the International Society of Indoor Air Quality and Climate (ISIAQ) as the Vice President of Practice, on the ethics committee of the International Society of Environmental Epidemiology (ISEE), the Joint Task Force workgroup of the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology and the American College of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology (AAAAI-ACAAI). The latter developed four medical practice parameters for allergists plus an entire issue of a leading peer reviewed journal on mold. He was on the committee that wrote the ASHRAE Position Document on Limiting Indoor Mold and Dampness in Buildings.

Nuggets mined from today’s episode:

Hayward Score- For 5 years Hayward Score sought to survey homeowners about how they perceived their homes. The 50 question survey sought three different criteria: Type of Structure, How Home is Used, Complaints. With over 90,000 responses Hayward Score has captured “big data”. Lack of maintenance is responsible for most complaints, 2/3’s of responders felt better when out of their homes, the average score was 53. Both the Z-Man and Kevin Kennedy were disappointed with their home’s scores (Z-Man’s was 60 which he attributes to his wife leaving a master bedroom window open year-round.) Haywards data scientist crunched the data 3 different ways and found an association between house dust and health symptoms. Using this along with other data, Carl authored a paper which was published in CIRI Journal of Cleaning Science that discussed the association of house dust with health symptoms. People who took the survey learned important information about their homes. People who followed recommendations from their survey experienced improvements in health and comfort in their homes.

Hayward Score has developed a Mini Score (8-15 question) survey for real-time use by inspectors with homeowners.

Defining health?
• According to Carl Grimes, the term health is too complex to define. Light, sound and IEQ affect health. Health indicators include: indices, facets, political, psychological, etc.
• In 1948, WHO defines health positively as “a state of complete physical, mental, and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.” (Each year WHO celebrates its date of establishment, April 7, 1948, as World Health Day.)

• https://www.ashrae.org › technical-resources › standards-and-guidelines › titles-purposes-and-scopes

• TPS - Titles, Purposes, and Scopes - ASHRAE
• SGPC 10 to maintain and revise Guideline 10. Guideline 10 on continuous maintenance. SGPC 10 authorized 10/1/2010. Interactions Affecting the Achievement of Acceptable Indoor Environments. ASHRAE Guideline 11-2021 - Published guideline. Supersedes Guideline-11-2018.

• Carl Grimes investigated why ASHRAE publications excluded references to health. He found that ASHRAE hadn’t excluded “health”; by board directive use of the word health was prohibited. Both past ASHRAE Presidents: Donald Bahnfleth, PE (1985-1986) and Dr. William Bahnfleth (2013-2014) unsuccessfully attempted to get ASHRAE to use the word health.

• Dr. Claudia Miller, MD, MS
https://tiltresearch.org/about-tilt/
Researches the negative impact of chemicals, food and pharmaceuticals. Dr. Miller developed a rating system and ranges.
• Mike McGuinness, CIH NIOSH suggested the 4 P’s- People, Pollution, Pathways and Pressures be used when evaluating buildings and the NIOSH Worker Well-Being Questionnaire (WellBQ) https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-110/default.html

• https://www.ashrae.org/file%20library/t ... design.pdf LINK TO ASHRAE DAMP BUILDING & HEALTH DOCUMENT

IICRC S520 discussion:
• Carl Grimes writes a monthly column in Healthy Indoors magazine. https://healthyindoors.com/magazine/
• The IICRC uses ANSI standard writing process. (inclusive, industry consensus, standard of care (reasonable in field), operational science,
• The ANSI standard writing process is rigorous.
• Carl advocates that SPRAYING mold remediation products on fungal contaminated surfaces IS NOT EQUIVALENT to physical removal of mold growth from surfaces.
• Carl expressed concern that large and well-funded manufacturers of chemical remediation products have influenced (dominated) the S-520 consensus process to accept the use of these chemical products in lieu of source removal cleaning.
• Carl opines that, while chemical manufactures may have toxicology data (lab animal studies) and lab efficacy data acceptable to the EPA (FIFRA), that their human exposure data is insufficient.
• Carl opined that the chemical industry needs to justify why source removal is unnecessary.
• Carl opined that the current S-520 in public review look too bare and stark; he preferred the earlier versions of the S-520 that included a reference guide in the same document.
• Carl opined that S-520 should be a prescriptive training manual (e.g. here is how you do it: step 1, step 2, step 3, etc.)

RoundUp-
• Tip for assessors, pose open ended questions.
• The pandemic, raised awareness of people (occupants).
• The pandemic improved the speed with which information was delivered.
• People are more interested in health now, we need a way to talk about it.
• Some human comforts indoors have improved over time.
• Carl was very surprised that many medical groups hasn’t considered human exposures indoors.
• The medical community has discovered Carl, he is speaking at a growing number of medical conferences.
• People have been excluded from the definition of health because we don’t know how to deal with the health of people.
• If we don’t do it who will?

Z-Man signing off


LINK TO IAQ RADIO SHOW ABOUT RELATIVE HUMIDITY AND AIRBORNE INFECTION
https://www.iaqradio.com/stephanie-h-ta ... tions-iaq/

[RadioJoe]

It's always a pleasure to catch up with Carl Grimes. A true gentleman and scholar. Interesing to hear how difficult its been for ASHRAE to deal with defining health over the years. I also enjoyed Carl's discussion of including people in assessments. The 4 P's should be required knowledge for anyone in this arena. Unfortunately its not taught in every program out there.